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Topic: Happy New Year! Ai in 2011...

lordjakian
posted 1/1/2011  21:20Send e-mail to userReply with quote
Wow, it has been a long time since I been here. Congrats on my new job interview! Thanks lordjakian! I appreciate it! Due to that, I might return a message back to this in a timely manner.

Okay, enough talking to myself and about myself.

All right, if you are new to Ai, then know this.

1. Intelligence is generally undefined.
2. Intelligence can be compared to being a a solid thing or as a changeable "fluid" thing.
3. Many people talk of ai in relation to goals. This is because an AI that doesn't succeed in it goals is called AD, or artificial dummy.

4. High tech questions should never be asked in a 1st post. A generally lower tech question should be asked first, which invites the higher tech knowables to answer. The positive effect by this method is that you will not be replied with smartass semi-unrelated comments and that you can direct your high tech questions to those who would more likely reply.

5. My own personal view on intelligence is measured through perspective. I love the idea of vectors. That intelligence is not possible without vectors.

6. Is what I say wrong?



Last edited by lordjakian @ 1/1/2011 10:01:00 PM

lordjakian
posted 1/1/2011  21:39Send e-mail to userReply with quote




Last edited by lordjakian @ 1/1/2011 9:40:00 PM

tkorrovi
posted 1/2/2011  02:21Send e-mail to userReply with quote
Yes it is.

Happy new year to you too!


lordjakian
posted 1/2/2011  13:10Send e-mail to userReply with quote
Happy new year Tkorrivi!

lordjakian: Is what I say wrong?
Tkorrivi: Yes it is.
WHAT!

Even without knowing what specifically you found as being wrong with my post, I'll offer some possible answers in reply.

1. My suggestion for firstime posters might be wrong. Instead, you should direct your question to tkorrovi. The guy is a computer wizard.

2. There are as many different views to what intelligence is as there are people to ask. In my personal experience this has been true. This doesn't prove it but strengthens the idea that intelligence isn't a commonly held single idea, and is more akin to a group of ideas. The interesting part is that this group is not tightly woven together.

3. Okay, the solid and liquid thing isn't suitable for Tkorrivi because Tkorrivi isn't the simple reply I expected. This conversation just elevated.

Bop bop bop!

For new ai people, awareness is something easily proved and easily used. Computer programs are already "aware". The question is what they are aware of and how. The problem is that this question can become very complex and forever lead a person from the philosophical question of intelligence.



Last edited by lordjakian @ 1/2/2011 1:18:00 PM

tkorrovi
posted 1/2/2011  17:02Send e-mail to userReply with quote
 
lordjakian wrote @ 1/2/2011 1:10:00 PM:

 
> My suggestion for firstime posters might be wrong. Instead, you should direct your question to tkorrovi. The guy is a computer wizard.

No, the only thing i deal with is True AI, i don't even answer questions about conventioal AI, i know some here are more competent in that. And no, i'm not a computer wizard, programmers you know, mostly know only that which they do.

> Okay, the solid and liquid thing isn't suitable for Tkorrivi because Tkorrivi isn't the simple reply I expected. This conversation just elevated.

No the reply is simple. I think the world is a network not liquid, because liquid is restricted by dimensions, and by the laws how the liquid moves. Maybe superfluid liquid is somewhat closer to truth, but then not only because of its liquid peoperties.

> The question is what they are aware of and how.

Yes, the awareness in wider sense is awareness of processes. Such awareness is the basis of all Artificial Consciousness and is not simple at all, including self-awareness.

PS Lord Jakian had a job interview. What? Lords don't have job interviews. You should rename your nick Subject Jakian instead, or then just Jakian if you prefer to omit the royal aspects.

Last edited by tkorrovi @ 1/2/2011 5:14:00 PM

lordjakian
posted 1/11/2011  09:51Send e-mail to userReply with quote
PS Lord Jakian had a job interview. What? Lords don't have job interviews. You should rename your nick Subject Jakian instead, or then just Jakian if you prefer to omit the royal aspects.

Hostile attitude is the weather today.

As for my screen name, there are no numbers added to it. It has been my online persona for longer then many have been alive. That is as royal a claim to it as I will make.

LoL,your response reminds me of a saying. "A man who depends on another for work is always a paycheck away from poverty."

The world as a network...... only means it is filled with connecting parts. Thats about as helpful as someone else
pissing in your shoes.

"Yes, the awareness in wider sense is awareness of processes. Such awareness is the basis of all Artificial Consciousness and is not simple at all, including self-awareness."

Why do you add in that it is not simple?

Last edited by lordjakian @ 1/11/2011 12:42:00 PM

tkorrovi
posted 1/11/2011  16:39Send e-mail to userReply with quote
 
lordjakian wrote @ 1/11/2011 9:51:00 AM:

 
> Hostile attitude is the weather today.

Never thought you take it so seriously, was intended as a something like joke.

Well and, my nick is stupid, all comes from my stupid name.

> The world as a network...... only means it is filled with connecting parts. Thats about as helpful as someone else
pissing in your shoes.

Well, it means quite a lot. Like it means that everything is not based on some liquid or another continuum.

> Why do you add in that it is not simple?

Not simple but primitive.

Well, we could rather be a kind of, friendly, makes no sense otherwise.

Last edited by tkorrovi @ 1/11/2011 4:46:00 PM

lordjakian
posted 1/18/2011  09:34Send e-mail to userReply with quote
Maybe "Tkor" is some kind of ancient russian title for nobility. Who knows, maybe it is! Here, we can have equal titles now.

Well Tkor Rovi, what processes do you see as forming the network for intelligence? How do you see awareness and intelligence fit in with consciousness?

I'm gonna smoke a cig, but I'll be back with a starting thought.

Awareness is akin to reactions. Awareness is like how chemicals react to each other. Awareness is like recognizing the brightness of your computer screen by closing your eyes and seeing it get darker by turning your head away from it.

Now if awareness was an accidental property of a system, then it does not nessecitate that it even have something to be made aware of. Fun Fun.

Last edited by lordjakian @ 1/18/2011 10:13:00 AM

tkorrovi
posted 1/18/2011  10:22Send e-mail to userReply with quote
 
lordjakian wrote @ 1/18/2011 9:34:00 AM:
Maybe "Tkor" is some kind of ancient russian title for nobility. Who knows, maybe it is! Here, we can have equal titles now.

Well Tkor Rovi, what processes do you see as forming the network for intelligence? How do you see awareness and intelligence fit in with consciousness?

I'm gonna smoke a cig, but I'll be back with a starting thought.

Awareness is akin to reactions. Awareness does not require intelligence or conciousness. If awareness is an accidental property then it does not even solicit an action.

 
> Maybe "Tkor" is some kind of ancient russian title for nobility.

Thanks, but i don't know that there is such title of nobility anywhere, also russians don't consider me russian at all. BTW this mess about what nation is what, was created by the same nobility the lords belong to, their favorite entertainment is to create wars.

> Awareness is akin to reactions.

Yes, if you take every word in its most primitive sense, then you get a very simple world, but this would be a world where nothing works and thus it can only exist in someone's imagination. Awareness of processes is not reaction, it needs modeling the processes based on the information received from the senses. And everything comes from that, prediction, unrestrictedness. You don't believe? Well, i'm not going to create a religion for you.

Last edited by tkorrovi @ 1/18/2011 10:41:00 AM

tkorrovi
posted 1/20/2011  22:43Send e-mail to userReply with quote
Lordjakian, come back, you can be lord if you want to


lordjakian
posted 2/2/2011  04:11Send e-mail to userReply with quote
Yes, if you take every word in its most primitive sense, then you get a very simple world, but this would be a world where nothing works and thus it can only exist in someone's imagination. Awareness of processes is not reaction, it needs modeling the processes based on the information received from the senses. And everything comes from that, prediction, unrestrictedness. You don't believe? Well, i'm not going to create a religion for you.

The game then becomes either you make a simple world where interesting games begin, or you make a world where everything has its logical place. When you say religion, i understand that you mean that you have a belief in your method and that converting me or converting you away from it would take much effort but please understand that there is no single method towards intelligence. I have to go and wanted to make this quick. I'll try to make another reply to explain in more detail.


tkorrovi
posted 2/2/2011  13:58Send e-mail to userReply with quote
 
lordjakian wrote @ 2/2/2011 4:11:00 AM:
The game then becomes either you make a simple world where interesting games begin, or you make a world where everything has its logical place. When you say religion, i understand that you mean that you have a belief in your method and that converting me or converting you away from it would take much effort but please understand that there is no single method towards intelligence. I have to go and wanted to make this quick. I'll try to make another reply to explain in more detail.

 
> The game then becomes either you make a simple world where interesting games begin, or you make a world where everything has its logical place.

Yes interesting games can begin in a simple world, but this needs more advanced systems to play these games. So still, not everything would have its place and stay in its place.

> When you say religion, i understand that you mean that you have a belief in your method and that converting me or converting you away from it would take much effort

Look i used the word religion, but only in the sense that i'm not going to convert you to any religion. That it is not a matter of belief, and is not a matter of our personalities, that it is only a matter of understanding.



lordjakian
posted 2/5/2011  14:18Send e-mail to userReply with quote
> When you say religion, i understand that you mean that you have a belief in your method and that converting me or converting you away from it would take much effort

Look i used the word religion, but only in the sense that i'm not going to convert you to any religion. That it is not a matter of belief, and is not a matter of our personalities, that it is only a matter of understanding.

I feel it is a very limited, even deniable sense of the single word "religion", but with your explanation, I'll go along.

...Dang you reply quick. Makes me feel a total ass actually. Sorry, I got that job I talked about earlier. I have been focusing on keeping it. Again, sorry.

I'll reply again this weekend.

Awareness of processes is not reaction, it needs modeling the processes based on the information received from the senses.

That's the core of your idea so far, yeah? What is wrong with the idea of awareness of processes being a reaction? Besides it is ass backwards in relation your idea?

I attempted to make a reply but I kept feeling like I was splitting hairs on different parts of the idea. Bah, I need to write it better.

It might just be calling some biological reactions a form of awareness due to modeling a process by copying itself and error correcting. argh.








Last edited by lordjakian @ 2/5/2011 3:49:00 PM

tkorrovi
posted 2/5/2011  22:52Send e-mail to userReply with quote
 
lordjakian wrote @ 2/5/2011 2:18:00 PM:




 
> That's the core of your idea so far, yeah?

No it's not the core of my idea. The core of my idea is as unrestricted as possible system, this is what comes from that.

> What is wrong with the idea of awareness of processes being a reaction? Besides it is ass backwards in relation your idea?

That it is pre-wired and thus restricted. Awaress of processes cannot be implemented as reactions, btw.


lordjakian
posted 2/10/2011  10:14Send e-mail to userReply with quote
oh dang, i found something. On wiki no less. Just type in "awareness".

"In philosophy, psychology, and cognitive science, perception is the process of attaining awareness or understanding of sensory information."

That sounds quite similar to your own words.

smoke break

When you use it, is the word process akin to relation?



Last edited by lordjakian @ 2/10/2011 10:45:00 AM

tkorrovi
posted 2/10/2011  16:18Send e-mail to userReply with quote
Relation? Don't know what do you mean by relation. The entities in the outside world, how they are connected to each other, and what changes these connections cause. In the other words, what happens, not just what is there, like neural network sees it.

Btw, sourceforge wrote today that it made some changes to their site. Means, my web pages are not up. And i have no idea when i would have a time to put this wiki up again. If someone knows how to transfer mediawiki from old sourceforge site to new, this would sure save a lot of my time, but i have no real hope to get any advice. These things are so ungrateful that you have to work even for a stooled project.

Last edited by tkorrovi @ 2/10/2011 4:38:00 PM

lordjakian
posted 2/17/2011  09:18Send e-mail to userReply with quote
Unrestricted system? psssshhhhh.....

As a basis an unrestricted system is inherently unstable. An example. An ideal machine with unrestricted senses and unrestricted responses would undoubtedly create unrestricted ideas/relations that humans may not readily comprehend. It would fail unless already equipped with a way in which to percolate onto human experience. [Otherwise we all get left only with the answer 42.(joke)]

An interesting starting question then becomes, what is harder, making the ideal unrestricted system, or make a system that can ideally percolate into human experience throughout all events?

Tkorrovi, when you SAY unrestricted as possible, i would like to know the boundaries on the idea. My learning method is like running through forests blindly and hitting low hanging branches. I may at times decide to stop and climb a tree, but I usually fall on my way down. Thunk bump, shake head, continue on.

damn, the rums gone...smoke break

"...awareness of processes cannot be implemented as reactions, btw."

Sure it can.

Why can you not call an awareness of processes as being akin to an interface between asynchronous senses? In this way it would continue to be a reaction, lending shape towards the way the interface interacts and shaping the possible reactions that may form.

The idea is akin to a sculptor that is given an imperfect piece of marble to work on, and then builds around the imperfection to create a piece of art...or garbage.

Last edited by lordjakian @ 2/17/2011 11:48:00 AM

tkorrovi
posted 2/17/2011  16:10Send e-mail to userReply with quote
 
lordjakian wrote @ 2/17/2011 9:18:00 AM:

 
> As a basis an unrestricted system is inherently unstable.

When it is self-developing, it would stabilize. Because the parts of the system which don't fit into their environment disappear.

> An ideal machine with unrestricted senses and unrestricted responses would undoubtedly create unrestricted ideas/relations that humans may not readily comprehend.

No, such system adopts to the environment and if the environment is human or anything which human does, the system tries to work the way how it fits to human.

> An interesting starting question then becomes, what is harder, making the ideal unrestricted system, or make a system that can ideally percolate into human experience throughout all events?

You cannot make one without the other.

> Tkorrovi, when you SAY unrestricted as possible, i would like to know the boundaries on the idea.

As unrestricted as possible means practically no restrictions. I say as unrestricted as possible only because it is not proved that there is no theoretical reason why every system remains restricted in some way, but it is not very plausible that there is any such restriction.

> My learning method is like running through forests blindly and hitting low hanging branches. I may at times decide to stop and climb a tree, but I usually fall on my way down. Thunk bump, shake head, continue on.

Yes it is because the solution is very extreme. My method was much more harsh, several times i kind of destroyed myself mentally, and then built myself up again. This is terrible, maybe the worst what anyone can experience, i know very well what it's like. I made my system and created my theory (or at least principles) partly also because no one else would then have to go through all that any more. But as i said, the solution is very extreme, so others still have to experience something similar, in a lesser degree ;) When you want to find a solution to an ultimate problem, you can be certain that it would not be easy.

> damn, the rums gone...smoke break

Rum is great.

> Why can you not call an awareness of processes as being akin to an interface between asynchronous senses? In this way it would continue to be a reaction, lending shape towards the way the interface interacts and shaping the possible reactions that may form.

This interface cause interaction. The key is that the connections have to cause similar changes as in the thing modelled, not that they just are there. The model has to work the same way as the thing modelled.

Reflexes are pre-determined and very inflexible, it is a very extreme idea that they can model much anything, and it is also wrong.

> The idea is akin to a sculptor that is given an imperfect piece of marble to work on, and then builds around the imperfection to create a piece of art...or garbage.

Yes here you come closer to how it works. The things are constantly created, the things which don't fit would be destroyed, and what is better that remains, which can once result in something good. Now also consider that these things are processes, like if there was a mechanical engineer instead of the sculptor. And you become even more closer.

It may also be not so much that you think it's wrong, you may rather be afraid that i may be right. Be ready for your worst expectations to be true.

Yes it's difficult. But when you see how beautiful it is, it's worth of it.

And now i too am going to have a smoke break, but for that i have to go to a -16 C cold.

Last edited by tkorrovi @ 2/17/2011 4:30:00 PM

lordjakian
posted 2/20/2011  15:02Send e-mail to userReply with quote
But if the system does not initially fit the environment, it fails and self development will not occur.

Ah ha, I KNEW I would someday find somthing else you posted to give me perspective. OK, "Unrestricted is the requirement which means that whatever system can emerge as a result of self-development."

Meaning that a system has to have as a basis a way in which to react to emerge as a result of self-deveopment.

Me, as a focus on reaction, wonder what reactions form a basis for an emergence of self development? I do not know of any that allow unrestrictness. Bu even your idea seems to allow restricted ideas as long as they conformed.

Gosh,This makes me wonder the priority you have towards the system and how it is applied...whether it is a single system made to work with the environment or a multi-group system with self-developing cohesion that automatically communicate with each other along different timelines of development.

It would make for different descriptions of tech,.,

ck sooner then later...

Last edited by lordjakian @ 2/20/2011 6:57:00 PM

tkorrovi
posted 2/20/2011  20:04Send e-mail to userReply with quote
 
lordjakian wrote @ 2/20/2011 3:02:00 PM:
Meaning that a system has to have as a basis a way in which to react to emerge as a result of self-deveopment.

 
Yes the system is a system of interconnected knots. The self-development consists of creation and destruction, and creation is creating new knot based on two other knots. And this has to happen in the a way that whatever system can emerge. Now the parts of the system which fit better into their environment survive, even only because more development happens there.

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