Ai Forums Home Welcome Guest    Saturday, March 25, 2017
Ai Site > Ai Forums > Language Mind and Consciousness > Discussing a new definition of consciousness Last PostsLoginRegisterWhy Register
Topic: Discussing a new definition of consciousness

trlstanc
posted 5/12/2011  16:49Send e-mail to userReply with quote
Hi all,

I created a new site to propose and discuss a definition of consciousness, one based on the brain creating a representation of the world.

I'd love to hear any questions/comments/suggestions, etc.

 Conscious Thoughts

tkorrovi
posted 5/12/2011  22:41Send e-mail to userReply with quote
I remember in the early days of the internet there were forums, each about some topic. You wanted to know or talk about that topic, and all the people who were interested about that were there. Now there are blogs, knowledge is fragmented between different people's blogs, and no one ever would gather it all together and put it into one piece. I don't know what else can be done that way, but for research we need a whole picture, so the information should either be in one place, or at least there should be a good way to put it together.

For talking about AI, this forum here is the only place i have found. Though i well know that it is not perfect, i have no idea what would happen with the old messages in this forum, is it archived somewhere and whether there would come a day when this forum simply disappears, with no way to find anything which was discussed here, any more. But there is nothing to do, when there are no better options. I created Artificial Consciousness forum http://tkorrovi.proboards.com which i maintain myself, so that anyone interested in that topic can post one's opinions there, but there is nothing i can do that no one interested in these things ever goes there. So i would not reply you in your blog, but reply you here instead. And i recommend to everyone not to write their opinions in their blogs, but to write them here instead.

About the things you wrote. It is the most unfortunate that so many people have to figure out these things by themselves. If they did search a bit more, they did find that the answers are there and they could avoid a lot of time and effort they needed for figuring it out. This is yet another disadvantage of scattering the information. Finally, such most basic subjects as consciousness interest large number of people.

First, what you wrote helps to explain that the communication of pulses is a universal representation of information, for these who still don't understand that eg text is a universal representation of information and everything can be communicated as text, or as a series of pulses. Here was a debate not so long ago, where people still couldn't understand that principle. Some additional explanations somewhere would be good to help these people to understand it.

And everything what follows has also been repeatedly said and explained here, in my forum and in my project's documentation. So if you did find it, you didn't have to figure it out yourself, and instead you could use your efforts to research these things further. And i have had to explain the same things here times and times again. That way, so much human resources are wasted.

What concerns the definition of consciousness, then there shouldn't be any dispute in it, consciousness is defined as awareness. But self-evidently it is awareness in its widest sense. And this includes awareness of processes.

Awareness of processes is modeling processes only based on the information obtained from the senses and from the rest of the system. Such obtaining of information may include interaction. Such modeling provides correspondence with the environment, because only the processes which fit into their environment (both external and internal) survive. And running these processes further provides prediction. This is why there is no difference between a model of the process and prediction. And such modeling also provides several other aspects of consciousness.

Such modeling needs a lot of flexibility (so that whatever processes can be modeled), thus an extremely unrestricted system is necessary to enable such modeling. And a system cannot be so unrestricted unless its basic mechanism is unrestricted. But this already goes beyond the topic.

Tristan, please stay in contact with some people here, maybe we can get some people to board the boat. Then we can gradually gather more support, and decide what we would do.

 Artificial Consciousness ADS-AC project
Last edited by tkorrovi @ 5/13/2011 5:59:00 PM

trlstanc
posted 5/25/2011  05:25Reply with quote
 
tkorrovi wrote @ 5/12/2011 10:41:00 PM:
What concerns the definition of consciousness, then there shouldn't be any dispute in it, consciousness is defined as awareness. But self-evidently it is awareness in its widest sense. And this includes awareness of processes.



 
I believe that we need to work on an objective definition of consciousness, one that we can test for from the "outside." Currently, to determine if someone is conscious, we have to ask them, but if we can develop a definition of consciousness that's testable, then we can use it to determine if something is conscious even if it's not able to tell us directly.

I just posted the latest version of the paper, which goes in to this point, and hopefully does a better job describing the definition and key ideas.

 Discussing a definition of consciousness

tkorrovi
posted 5/25/2011  15:14Send e-mail to userReply with quote
The aspects of consciousness can be detected from outside, except the subjective experience. Bernard Baars defined several functions of consciousness which are objective and can be tested, Igor Aleksander also added prediction. We cannot test the presence of all aspects of consciousness, but the presence of a few testable ones may indicate the presence of consciousness. Because all these aspects are the manifestations of the same system. As i said, everything supposed to come from the awareness of processes.

As an example of testing the aspects of consciousness, one may see the experiment with a bird (link to the video below). There a bird, who had no previous knowledge of bendable plastic objects such as wire, made a hook of it to get a food. For that, it had to model the object, that is the wire, the process of bending it, and the process of using it for obtaining food, only based on the information it recieved from its vision and from interacting with the object. The key there is that the bird was capable of finding novel solutions.

 Artificial Consciousness Forum -> Crow's Intelligence
Last edited by tkorrovi @ 5/25/2011 3:22:00 PM

Exebeche
posted 7/22/2011  18:34Reply with quote
 
trlstanc wrote @ 5/25/2011 5:25:00 AM:
I believe that we need to work on an objective definition of consciousness, one that we can test for from the "outside."

 
I suppose you're right.
One of these tests has been done with some kind of birds, not sure if it was ravens or some kind of crow.
They put something on the birds head and gave it a look in the mirror.
When the picture in the mirror made the bird try to remove the thing from its head this gave proove that he realised himself in the mirror.
Meaning he has a kind of self awareness.
His mind contains a self model which he finds reflected in the mirror.
Of course this test also works with some kinds of apes.
Fascinating however that a creature with a small brain like a bird also can show this kind of self awareness.
Self awareness however ist just is one part of human consciousness.
Is anyone here familiar with the consciousness model of Thomas Metzinger?
It's pretty much the most up to date model that i know of.
Widely based on neuroscientific knowledge it shows that there is still a huge amount of research to be done.


bitoyak
posted 9/7/2011  06:45Send e-mail to userReply with quote
conscious is the final stage of ai but our level in the topic ai is just zero , start our research from neural network function and one day we will reach the level for define consciousness


tkorrovi
posted 9/7/2011  17:28Send e-mail to userReply with quote
 
bitoyak wrote @ 9/7/2011 6:45:00 AM:
conscious is the final stage of ai but our level in the topic ai is just zero , start our research from neural network function

 
You say it because you want to say that we have to start from simple. And i fully agree. But i don't agree that we must proceed from neural network research, because we must not start from destructive simplification. It's similar to doing physics research using only two Newton laws out of three, by that the planets couldn't move as they do.

 Artificial Consciousness ADS-AC project

Jorie Rye
posted 12/22/2014  07:03Reply with quote
Hi, in my own view, consciousness is being aware of something, surroundings or it maybe a person. Being aware for me is understanding and showing realization for what is happening around.


tkorrovi
posted 12/22/2014  07:24Send e-mail to userReply with quote
Yes and, this is not your own view, like i said that a few posts ago.

 Artificial Consciousness ADS-AC project

maks
posted 12/26/2014  13:33Send e-mail to userReply with quote
Hi!
Consciousness has a lot of plasticity and variety as well.
On account of that we can't do full definition of consciousness .It's(Consciousness) prerogative of living beings for now.And for now we can't simulate mere microbe.People do trying invent something that resemble
some qualitative or unqualitative model of
consciousness.Kinda-sorta the intricate calculator they did for now.The question is how brain assemble
all things at once and build up the world?

  1  
'Send Send email to user    Reply with quote Reply with quote    Edit message Edit message

Forums Home    The Artificial Intelligence Forum    Hal and other child machines    Alan and other chatbots  
Contact Us Terms of Use