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Topic: How do you define Consciousness?

Devender Singh Rana
posted 1/14/2014  04:22Send e-mail to userReply with quote
PUBLIC NOTICE: This topic is locked and closed for public due to some kukur types (tkorrovi aka trav) seems not listen to some genuine request or advice and keep on nagging or writing senseless bogus things to others topic. But fault is mine I invited that kukur in first place but I sure also know how to deal with such duffers eventually if need arise to even that stupid level.


SO I INFORM ALL THE OTHER SINCERE PPLS NOT TO WRITE POST TO THIS OTHERWISE A GOOD TOPIC UNDER ANY WHATSOEVER CIRCUMTANCES FROM NOW ON.



Some of his past stupid behaviours...

http://cosmos.boards-directory.com/t11-some-of-our-early-conversation-with-a-globs-kukur-called-trav-seems-like-it-can-t-live-with-or-appreciate-humans-or-their-form-much-so-we-ultimately-upgraded-its-esteem-position-to-more-appropriate-level-that-suits-it-better-from-now-on

http://www.ai-forum.org/topic.asp?forum_id=1&topic_id=74455&page=1



Anyway this topic wasn't going where I intend to take it...Some duffers have very weirdo idea about otherwise some simple words I suppose. So I advise all the others ppl who still value some sensible sense not to write or ask for anything here, from anybody I wud like to add on this, except you too are its type and share its stupid views and would like to share the same fate as that stupid duffer. And I'm not talking here about this net msg post thing or kukur addressing thing but some real stuff. I don't believe in playing some stupid net war games that some ppl like I suppose. And I don't think at this extreme its possible for me to use even some human pronouns to address that stupid. And it certainly not even some pet of mine so I decided to address him with form that is far more appropriates to its types. And certainly I'm doing it in-front of whole world and won't shy away from addressing the issue with even all of you if this whole world kinda want it. So unless any of you comes in that capability or form pls do not try override my sincere advice to you. No matter what your esteem intentions are. I myself will someday bring this issue to you all someday when I think time is appropriate.


But you kukur (trav) can keep on writing whatever your stupid mind tells you ...will benefit you in time to come I can assure you that much. And I know your owners more than you do so still be my guest but sure as I told you already I myself don't read your bogus stupid nonsense post so you can have all the fun all by yourself while u can. Those who aint conscious enough about there human form or what it means are not the type of things that I like to befriend or keep association with....and that hold true by me even if you all 7 billions share his stupid views. Cause I don't think in that case it would be that hard for you to judge yourself how stupid or duffers you all are. So in that case only thing you are advised for is to come forward in that capacity and deal the issue directly with me if you really want to say something to me that bad and that without any kukur style escape tactics. I don't fancy playing kukur type games. And who can't afford to come in that capacity or in other words take responsibility for that side of things, no need to tell that you are not entitled to use that form no matter who you suppose you to be. And I believe this holds true to every other thing as well. So does it comes under the meaning of consciousness. If you aint conscious enough about your own inconsistencies of your mind or thinking then you need not discuss, worry or advice others about that word. At least not with the ones who still value those things in this stupid world.

Is that a problem with anybody whosoever? So just keep to yourselves and don't talk or write on my topics not only here but anywhere on this virtual platform called Internet or real life. I think with this I made my point clear enough for everybody to comprehend no matter who...A duffer or sensible person.



With this I conclude this for time being and thank you all rest of you sincere citizens of this world except that stupid duffer trav - THANK YOU!









My simple questions are...

what consciousness means to you?

How do you define it in your terms?

And what does it mean to you when talking in relation to AI?



especially our friend trav can throw some real light on this topic... Aur pakaana nahin yaar! Tum bahut pakaau cheez hoh boss... heheh!


[Note: I don't mean intelligence or some other similar related term here by it. Its a thing with us that we can just get away with similar related term in place of some term.]



Last edited by Devender Singh Rana @ 8/22/2015 2:54:00 PM

tkorrovi
posted 1/14/2014  04:56Send e-mail to userReply with quote
I define consciousness as awareness. But awareness in its widest sense, awareness of processes.

This means building models of the processes in the environment, only based on the information received from the input (senses) and based on the interaction with the environment. Models of the processes consist of components, and connections between them, so that these models can be run.

All the aspects of consciousness come from that definition. Like unrestricted self-development is necessary to build models in that way, without having any prior information about the thing modeled. That is, to be always able to model, in all conditions. Running these models enables prediction. Interaction with other models provides self-awareness. Et cetera.

 Artificial Consciousness ADS-AC project
Last edited by tkorrovi @ 1/14/2014 4:59:00 AM

Devender Singh Rana
posted 1/14/2014  10:01Send e-mail to userReply with quote
 
tkorrovi wrote @ 1/14/2014 4:56:00 AM:
awareness in its widest sense...

 
trav says ...awareness in widest sense.

In widest sense or wildest sense trav, eh? ..haha! Seems like a later case to me. Tum maane nahin, phir pakaane ke mood me aa gaye na. ;)

So you create AC (artificial consciousness) ...me the simple Consciousness ...smile. Different ppl different objectives ...you don't think I came here just to make some AI thing ..heheh! I have my own reason ..and they more secretive then yours or anybody, buddy ;). Just that I am secretive of different kind ...smile.

By the way, I posted your reply e-mail there at that forum ..haha! ...not that what you specifically said not to ;). Hope you don't mind ...heheh! But if you comunicate with crazy folks like that ...so anything can happen you see ;). You know I got my attachment facility revoked just cause I published my email address along with their passwords in my media section there. which is viewed by all ppls ..haha!. That's why I have to create that forum for me. So that I don't have to worry about all these things again in the future. And yeah there's very another secret aspect about this event ...which of course I gonna take up with this world in future. Somebody calling for some warm up down back side ..heheh! Nobody can be on both places at a time. Or as I said it just magic. And magic is only for theatre entertainment not in real life. And by just saying this life is game or drama doesn't make it for everybody .. that 's not the way it should be if its like that already. Entertainment is not a compulsive item that everybody have to bear. And yeah real consciousness can't develop in secrecy ...cause that's called timidity. There are other terms to refer it as well but I think that will do for the time being ...smile. And if one wanna really feel like a conscious person then that way has to be abandoned at all cost. Hope you not that worried about this act of mine ..heheh!. I am gonna make you real conscious person U C. ...haha! Just don't get over conscious okay! And sure not talking in voodoo way like most of ppl here do. As I told you I don't do things artificial. Just am different then all lot types in that sense....smile.


Anyway back to topic.... here what I mean to say is ...in more fundamental sense. You know the sense of feeling. Like in case of visual perception or audio or any other input mechanism of ours. That type of consciousness. Then all other other levels are formed over that. That's why lots of ppl here talk about the perceiver thing. Or everything except this comes under the category of intelligence itself.

Then we use awareness in various other uses ..like in a sense ..awareness about society or such thing ..like some matter. But logical thinking I am not including in it. Human consciousness is more fundamental. Why you perceive the way you perceive them is the root question. But I am not saying that one should try to go for finding it. Its not worth that nor it is possible but by just introspection or guessing in different forms. But sure a table can be made of wood or iron, its just a matter of choice. So its just all about other logical relation of things after you get or perceive input by what ever way.

Sure not the question I asked ..its just a way of saying things. So why you talking it like artificial consciousness in your AC. Or is it that AC ...alternating current ..situation may I add ..haha! You really upto some kaandha I think ;). So what you really doing trav. I mean what are your real plans... wanna give somebody next parallel world shock ...haha! Just count me out! ...Those things won't work with me. And maybe all you talking can be put under intelligence itself. Yeah all that can be interpreted in lots of different ways as well that we talked about. But those Weirdo things has nothing to do with what I am discussing here, in plain simple programmatic sense. Remember I am not from that secret team we have in this world? ...smile.


If you really wanna be my friend than we can't be both sides. I am too much involve on this issue with the world as you say you are. So... we got to understand something somewhere... no? I don't know about yours but I can't afford to lose anymore ...and yes afford I said specifically. And I hope you understand why I said that ..haha!


So somebody gonna go down if we insist on this ...smile!


Anyway I will replying to your e-mail, just kinda busy with something for the moment. Just got to deal with my folks as well ;)

cya!


Last edited by Devender Singh Rana @ 1/14/2014 10:29:00 AM

Devender Singh Rana
posted 1/14/2014  10:02Send e-mail to userReply with quote
 
tkorrovi wrote @ 1/14/2014 4:56:00 AM:
awareness in its widest sense...

 
Hey trav how could somebody delete his post over here. I just did double clicking thing (duplicate posting) ..an struck with this last one :(

anyway cya!

Last edited by Devender Singh Rana @ 1/14/2014 10:32:00 AM

tkorrovi
posted 1/14/2014  10:32Send e-mail to userReply with quote
In a way AC is alternating current yes, a kind of tesla thing :) So one may say the conventional AI is very static. like DC. ADS is very dynamic, everything consists of change. And True AI, one thing is clear to me, it has to have unrestricted self-development too, so it is more likely like AC ;)

 Artificial Consciousness ADS-AC project

Devender Singh Rana
posted 1/14/2014  15:09Send e-mail to userReply with quote

You skip lots of things actually trav, that somewhat make me think about you, that you'are from my voodoo chacha's team. ;) But trav how you gonna convert your this alternating approach into direct one if you are one ..smile. they tried and lost ...haha! cause that's what count in the end. That's why we put transformers in most of the gadgets as first modules, no? Woh toh mere jaisa ghadha hi hai joh phaltu mein chacha logon ki izzat bachaye hai. Woh saala meine socha bada kaam kar rahe honge yaar. Mujhe kya maloom tha haramkhor saare ke saare mere hi piche padhe hain :).

And yeah yeah! that's tesla thing I was talking about when I said something of creation of big force by opposing forces. I just forgot his name. Just read about him few days ago I mean. Then I read lots of other foolish stories related to some Russian things. Not read just skimmed over them. So basically they all come under the category of art rather than anything else. At least for me.


Anyway just two question before continuing...and I am expecting a honest answer here. Or you wanna feel like going for another tangent (AC situation).

1) You not from my chacha's team I am talking about? I mean not playing some kinda game with me? ;)

2) Second, what do you mean by this unrestricted self development of yours ...specifically why you attached this particular word unrestricted. You not talking in voodoo magic sense are you? or you just mean a basic logic on which like we develop over here. But there could be lots of meaning here. i.e. yes the humans take birth upside down way. I mean wrong side way. That's thinking of voodoo pls. I mean they give it logical color to simple phenomena. Which just can be as simple as some fools trying escape their faults and try get into teacher mold. But I think in my case we crossed even that bridge long ago. But like if one start talking the way the same fools will try mock you out cause they don't have it in them ...As I told you you can capture a kings post by lots of means and way ..but can be king only in only one way. By being king in real. Else you'll be just another of those fools I talked you about in my forum. Remember that DVD seller... Those fools are pain for themselves as well as for other mere souls. You know the reason why?

Cause I don't know about unrestricted AI but I sure can show you and this whole world or whatever there is ...that how unrestricted I can be formed in current situation. Just have to direct that unrestricted AI of your to themselves.

You know, cause and effect not a phenomena ..or okay it is.. I dunno exactly what phenomena means in English really. cause generally most of us don't get the meaning from dictionary but through day to day talks. By guess I mean ..we all do it time to time. Sure one can guess about one or two missing piece amoung the lot, if not in case the whole lot is alien to him. ;) Its common sense I mean.

So just tell me in layman's terms what you mean by your unrestricted self development. Cause if you want it of any practical purpose, you got to involve all the concern modules. Like audio, visual etc. You not planning it to work in some other dimension. I mean you wanna run it here on this earth or universe at least... heheh!

Sure I agree with you, to design such thing most of the logic will be too simple. That's what we are. It just have to be a perfect differentiation machine. One which can pick out the subtlest difference. The ...what you call refinement ..umm no...uh ....like you say sieve nos ..depend upon like you say sample ration of audio stream. or like frames processing power of video engine. things like that. That works underneath which make thing either normal moving or jerky or not natural ...things like that. So you trying to design a complete solution, right? Are you comfortable with audio/video raw APIs. Sure I am talking in OS thing terms here not AI. Have you ever worked on some audio/video software ...any level. I mean have at least a raw know how of things. Maybe you know lot more then I thinking now. I just don't know. Are you a software professional I mean. I am not as you know it.

So if you can take care of other software issues then I think we can work on (Brain storm) some core raw logic (neural network kinda) for implementing audio and visual system. And that really can help a lot to strengthen the AI logic or NLP processing as whole. I mean they two main components out of five we got. It really gonna help in designing the understanding mechanism of engine.

And yeah I think you changed some documentation at your site. First day I got there ..there was some tic tac toe kinda program logic there ...now yesterday I visited your site just curiosity and now you talk about some knots things there. That's some improvement for me.. you know at least I am not man of scientific temperament... not like the normal scientist things behave like here. I mean in overly typical jargons. Maybe its some use for them ..only they know. But I think they kinda pursue it like some cult rather then for simplifying things. So most probably we won't be talking in term of DSP of this thing or that but just samples. whether audio or video, right? We'll do some raw level brain storming. Like how I see neural network is ..its just a way of categorizing things ..or inputs. Like when you talk about plain logic NLP ...its about differentiating things. So they kinda opposite in a sense. But since input is vary variable in this case so you got to make it dynamic in a sense . not a fixed layer neural network. Like we are doing with upper level NLP task. Its kinda network. So abstracting the same idea somehow to implement a neural network for audio and video processing. But then again the task remain how to connect different networks together. Cause in case of humans, they always connected since or even before the time of actual birth. That's how they develop in first place. But it need lots of training. A three day training or even months seems too much for a AI software but you compare it with humans. Our network is always working even during sleep time. We just shut our some external part so save energy ..specially the visual system or mechanical system. So our inner battery (haha!) ..sort of get charged (recover from fatigue) back. Like if you connect the mobile on net. Your mobile just don't get that much charge through usb port as it get discharged during internet processing. So ultimately battery got depleted. At least my version do ...haha! Its Sony Ericsson old model. My new 3g sony aint working now ..smile.

But I think a way can be devise to connect things for faster uptime .. I mean get basic working mode. Once you are able to create basic then its gonna work on its own. I mean yeah I know lot of difference as far as humans or us is concerned will still be there. We have dynamic inputs. But again sure some patching can be done. And most promising thing is then it can really have a very normal training interface. Visual system is our (humans) core tool for its understanding of space fundamentals concepts. Or else we have to design some intermediate model for it and make it work somehow.

And sure for me its always gonna be hobby thing... I don't intend to get involved in it like most people do. I mean if it had come during my early schooling days (even 10th standard or so) then I wud have gone for it full scale. Now my foot... I dont want to be computer nerd ...smile. I love computers but that's it. Not very much a gadgets fan but sure do like it for some reasons.

I follow the policy of what our "Sabrina's" father had in that movie. I mean he was driver or Harrison ford. And there's a scene when Sabrina says that you know why my father took the job of driver here. Cause he loves reading novels ...haha! And that's my thinking ..of course! if there isn't any catastrophe on this earth and I have to be summoned for call of duty. Like if war happens then there chances that you might have to go for it ..even if aint any soldier or have liking for such things... You just can't abandon everybody else. Or like in a situation like overloaded aircraft. ..one have to jump out of it for saving others, no? ..heheh! Or else all gonna go down for sure. ....so if such is not the case then I am like sab's father. I enjoy living simple. And sure simple doesn't mean that I love being a empty pocket or beggar of sorts .. ;). Simple means limited means. And my limit is better constraint than most of here in this world. So ..umm

anyway, just don't forget my question especially the first one ...and don't you lie to me ..or you gonna be in same line with others ...remember my baseball bat...haha! ....so anxiously waiting for your reply about that. Honest one okay! ...Lets say which turn you take now. I know things my way but lets hear it from you this time.

That's very important for me before I start on something with you... ;)

So are you from chacha's team ..here in disguise.... if you are then I know your AC thing ...and sorry to say I am flatly not interested. ;) I don't work with chacha's ppls. They have their own types ...and in great number so ..one less doesn't matter. And I don't think there's any catastrophe here anymore that isn't solved already ...so my being with them or not doesn't matter that much now. I don't make this whole world ..I am just one in 7 billions and that also when we don't count our other counterparts living here in various forms. So maybe trillions or even more ...but I don't give a damn now. Been through all that long ago. Abey jab jawani mein laudiya nahin chodi toh budhape mein chodta saalo! Just ignore my ciphers if you not one of them. Don't try deciphering them, okay. These just for chachas team. Unhe malh yudh ka bada shock hai. And if you one then you won't need it cause you already know it... haha! That's call magical fight by some... magical my foot!


anyway waiting for your answers ..and don't you skip them this time. Lets check out that you making one AC or dancing like one ...heheh! Or else if you not one... that sure we gonna crack big! ;)

Apni nigahen bhi sahi hai aur nisaana bhi koi itna karaab nahin hai. Chachaon se toh jayada achaa hai.. Kukur paney mein hi aage hai woh mujhse ... ;) hahah!



Last edited by Devender Singh Rana @ 1/14/2014 3:54:00 PM

Devender Singh Rana
posted 1/14/2014  15:26Send e-mail to userReply with quote
Sorry trav! ;) I just posted your previous email as well on my forum ...haha! Sure I kept my words still intact not disclosing still what you said not ....heheh!

Maybe trav's popularity gonna get me some audience there ;)



tkorrovi
posted 1/14/2014  21:12Send e-mail to userReply with quote
No i'm not from any chacha team. How can i show it to you? Well, what concerns any religion or magick, i'm only interested in the most fundamental. The same as my AI things are about the most fundamental. Like in hermeticism i'm only interested in emerald tablet, and not any religion part of it. I'm about philosophy only, not any practice of magick or anything. Some hermeticists like my ideas though, but this is only because they very much appreciate the fundamental. Anyway, newton was hermeticist too.

Unrestricted in self-development means that whatever system can emerge as a result of self-development. Like, it is possible to implement turing machine in so many systems, but that is not enough for unrestricted self-development. Because for that it must be possible that turing machine can emerge as a result of self-development. This is necessary for it to be potentially possible to model whatever. I think this is the most important thing which the conventional AI lacks. Because whatever restriction there is in self-development, it would quite often occur that the lacking part would be necessary. The reality is like hologram, no matter how small part of it we take, there is all the diversity present in bigger parts. So at every of these many times, the conventional AI fails, resulting in inconsistency or exception. Which means that there are quite small number of tasks for which it is useful at all.

I'm a professional programmer. But i have not done any audio or video. I somewhat know the alsa api, i found that i can quite easily make a granular synthesizer with it. Qt is much simpler for sound though. But i found no purpose of doing it. Human voice synthesis is granular synthesis. I don't understand why are you talking about voice and video about True AI. Text is enough, and with great dynamism it is interesting too. Text is also a universal representation of data, it can always be converted into whatever audio or images if necessary. Like as you may be aware, there are archive programs which enable to pack any file into text and back, the file may be image, sound, or whatever else. Text in that, one can post a video in this forum, just as an ordinary text, and then it can be converted back to video again. Once they used that to send files in forums and chatrooms, they use it even today. But i don't think any sound or video is necessary at first.

 Artificial Consciousness ADS-AC project
Last edited by tkorrovi @ 1/14/2014 9:33:00 PM

tkorrovi
posted 1/15/2014  07:10Send e-mail to userReply with quote
Devender, please listen, i'm not in your chacha team and i don't know anything about it. I'm a good guy and you are treating me as a bad guy. So who are you, a spy intentionally playing fool and attacking people? They sure can well compose all the rubbish you write. What they cannot compose is what i write.

And if you write any of my personal information in this forum, i contact the admins, as this is against the forum rules.

Last edited by tkorrovi @ 1/15/2014 7:20:00 AM

lordjakian
posted 2/4/2014  06:57Send e-mail to userReply with quote
You betterv be drinking, causeb you are tali9ng nutz Devender Singh Rana....give me some time to filter your bs, but your screwed up


Apni nigahen bhi sahi hai aur nisaana bhi koi itna karaab nahin hai. Chachaon se toh jayada achaa hai.. Kukur paney mein hi aage hai woh mujhse

I'm laughing too. Cause you are making nonsense. I can say say things too. Ruh. Ruh. Ruh. Ruh. Just Ruh. You sound too forceful to even listen. so just go away.

Last edited by lordjakian @ 2/4/2014 7:07:00 AM

chris1235
posted 4/25/2014  15:48Send e-mail to userReply with quote
Is anyone interested in actually discussing this topic? What's withe paranoid ramblings?


tkorrovi
posted 4/26/2014  02:08Send e-mail to userReply with quote
Yes of course we are interested, why then are we here.

 Artificial Consciousness ADS-AC project

chris1235
posted 4/28/2014  00:14Send e-mail to userReply with quote
So what's with the paranoid bickering ramblings infecting this and other topics? The topics are interesting. The content is not. It's like eavesdropping on a private and rather weird conversation.


tkorrovi
posted 4/28/2014  01:54Send e-mail to userReply with quote
Right. The least what i want.


chris1235
posted 5/1/2014  12:17Send e-mail to userReply with quote
Iit's not just this topic; it's others as well. I emailed the site about it and asked them to take a look. No reply so far.


tkorrovi
posted 5/1/2014  14:06Send e-mail to userReply with quote
chris1235, so you accuse me, and me only? This is not right, and putting it so can only be interpreted as an attack against me. If this is how you put it, then you are not better than the people who offend me, two persons that is. And i have not offended anyone, i tried to agree with them, but they didn't listen. Their interest was obviously something else than discussing AI.

If you want to discuss definition of consciousness in this thread, then why don't you? Nothing prevents you. I already said that i'm only interested in discussing AI, and so are others here.

So why not end all these arguments and start to discuss definition of consciousness instead?

Please reply.

Last edited by tkorrovi @ 5/1/2014 2:20:00 PM

chris1235
posted 5/4/2014  15:37Send e-mail to userReply with quote
OK. We can't define consciousness - because we don't (can't?) understand it. Any attempt to do so will inevitably stray into mysticism or quantum physics (or a dangerous mixture of both!) Entertaining but off-topic. "Awareness" is not a definition. It is perhaps a synonym - but not a very good one. However, it's probably a good starting point. If we can analyse and mimic the basic components of awareness, we might have the building blocks for a realistic AI project. For instance, Google's driverless car must have some pretty good image-recognition software.



tkorrovi
posted 5/4/2014  17:06Send e-mail to userReply with quote
 
chris1235 wrote @ 5/4/2014 3:37:00 PM:
OK. We can't define consciousness - because we don't (can't?) understand it. Any attempt to do so will inevitably stray into mysticism or quantum physics (or a dangerous mixture of both!)

 
Ok, you said your opinion, good, everyone should say their opinion. All i say is that i don't agree. We may not fully understand it but it doesn't mean that we cannot understand it at all.

If we take what you said as a dogma, then we severely restrict our knowledge, and it's a self-causing argument. If we assume that we cannot understand, we will not try to understand, and the result is that we cannot understand, the same as the assumption. Someone here tries to push exactly the view that it is all about some quantum mysticism, which is not possible to understand, yet it is possible to use it in quantum. And this is to the extent that he is willing to eliminate me if i try to express an opinion that any part of it should be rational and possible to understand. I mean, a view is one thing, making it personal is something completely different.

Btw, google car doesn't drive completely without a driver, this is yet another hype. It is capable of recognizing certain obstacles on the road, such as other cars or people, yet it has a person who supervises the driving, either sitting in the car or by remote control.

 Artificial Consciousness ADS-AC project
Last edited by tkorrovi @ 5/4/2014 5:08:00 PM

chris1235
posted 5/5/2014  15:34Send e-mail to userReply with quote
Yes, apparently Google's car radar-scans its surroundings, makes a 3D map and compares it to an existing map. So not actual image recognition. Consequently it can't reliably distinguish between a child and a letter box, and the cars are always driven manually in residential areas
Most of the driving is automatic, on freeways, where the system can recognise vehicles, calculate their speed and relative position and adjust the controls accordingly. So it does mimic human consciousness a bit. It's a start - and probably a useful one.

Apparently, state of the art image recognition deals only with static 2D images. A long way from that achieved by the simplest animal with eyes and a brain. And consciousness!

Regarding the definition of consciousness, I accept that we can have some understanding of what it is, but our understanding is so limited as to make functional definition impossible.

And how does that quest help the AI project? If we can begin to mimic sensory awareness, that would be amazing.



chris1235
posted 5/5/2014  18:13Send e-mail to userReply with quote
But as it is the topic, how about this as a working definition: the state of being aware of and responsive to one's surroundings.

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